The
European Union's new migration policy [music] comes into force. The sweeping
pact aims to tighten border controls and change
asylum
rules. But will it deter [music] people from seeking refuge in Europe?
And
what role have the blocks politics played? This is [music] Inside Story.
[music]
Hello,
welcome to the program. I'm Anna Burns Francis. It's called the European Union
Pact on Migration and Asylum and
it
took effect on Friday. The policy is the culmination of years of tough
negotiations between member states on
how
to handle incoming asylum seekers and other migrants. The pact is being
described as the most significant
overhaul
of Europe's migration rules to date, and it introduces stricter measures for
people who want to enter the EU. Human rights groups and the left
say
the reforms could undermine the rights of people seeking refuge. But the right
says the new policy doesn't go far enough. In a moment, we'll discuss with
our
guests the challenges Brussels is facing to implement this pact. But first,
this report from Ferdier Car.
The
European Union is implementing a sweeping overhaul of its migration rules.
The
pact on migration and asylum aims to tighten controls at Europe's borders with
quick mandatory screening for
migrants
through an EUwide database, faster returns for people whose asylum claims are
rejected, and a so-called
solidarity
mechanism compelling member states to either relocate asylum seekers where most
arrive, like Italy and Greece, or provide other aid.
Immigration
has been an increasingly divisive issue across Europe in both the EU and
non-member states.
Earlier
this week, a knife attack in the northern Irish city of Belfast triggered
violence with masked attackers targeting
homes
they believed belonged to foreignb born residents.
And
anti-immigrant sentiment has led to a surge in support for farright parties
across the EU.
That
largely began after 2015 when record numbers of asylum seekers began arriving
in Europe. They were fleeing
war
and instability in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Scenes of families
arriving on overcrowded boats
or
drowning in the attempt to cross led to calls for them to be allowed safe
passage. The same year, Germany allowed
more
than 1 million asylum seekers to enter the country. Now, the far-right
anti-immigration AFD party leads opinion
polls.
[applause] Mainstream parties there and across Europe are increasingly
appealing to anti-immigration sentiment.
In
the last 13 months, EU colleagues have told me the German attitude was the
problem, that they wanted to go much further to enforce stricter regulations
in
Europe, that Germany was the break on that. Well, we're no longer slowing down
the train. Now, we're in the driver's seat.
EU
researchers also warned that misinformation online is fueling anti-migrant
views. For European
leaders,
the pact is more than an overhaul of asylumseeking procedures.
It's
an attempt to convince increasingly skeptical voters that the block is
responding to their concerns. But rights
groups
say it may jeopardize the rights of those seeking protection. Frediaakar Alazer
for Inside Story.
[music]
All
right, let's bring in our guests for today. Marta Wheelinder is EU advocacy
director at International Rescue Committee. She joins us from Brussels.
Natalie
Tochi is a professor of practice at John Hopkins University, SIS Europe.
She's
joining us from Rome. And Peter Clipper is editor-inchief at Brussels Report.
Also joining us from Brussels. A welcome to each of you. Thank you.
Marta,
can I start with you? Does Europe have an immigration problem?
Thank
you very much for having me. Um, I think it's certainly safe to say that there
was a need uh for an overhaul of
the
previous system um in in how the EU and its member states approached
migration
and asylum. Um I think of course there was a need to ensure that there wasn't a
disproportionate
responsibility
laid upon the countries of first entry such as Italy, Spain, Cyprus, Greece. Um
there was also a
strong
need to find solutions for the inadequate reception uh facilities and capacity
and asylum processing systems.
Um
and indeed a need for safe uh and legal pathways. Um so in that sense u indeed
there were shortcomings and
issues
in the in the EU's previous approach. Um and but I think what we're concerned
about here is that the
pack
that now uh com will start being implemented that it may not provide uh durable
solutions to these
issues
um in ways that also uphold fundamental rights and uh and international refugee
law.
Yeah.
Natalie, can I ask you? You are in Rome. So you are in Italy, one of the
countries that is geographically the
front
line as it stands for this issue, but the EU has dozens of state members.
Has
this been a failing on behalf of other countries not to support those that are
that first line for refugees
arriving
on the shores of the of the European continent?
I
mean if you look at the number of uh asylum seekers in general of uh also
migrants
uh in Italy compared to other European countries particularly north European
countries actually still today
there
is a much higher number of uh both refugees and migrants in North European
countries. So if you're simply
looking
at this as a question of overall numbers then actually no. Now, of
course,
there has been a moment, a turning point because, you know, once upon a time,
if we go back to the 1990s
to
the early 2000s, actually the direction that uh migrants and refugees
came
into Europe was actually fairly um in a sense distributed, right? I mean, there
were migrants particularly in the 1990s, refugees coming from the Balkans.
Then,
of course, there was uh Afghanistan, the Middle East, Africa. So the
geographical distribution was really rather varied particularly after the
Arab
uprisings um and particularly given that the Arab uprisings essentially came
just before the um or you know just
before
the sovereign debt crisis in Europe which as we know hit particularly southern
Europe. What you end up having in those years. So you know starting
2011,
12, 13, 14 is basically on the one hand this flux that is particularly
coming
from subsaharan Africa through North Africa given that it is going through a
moment of destabilization in
the
context of the Arab uprisings which then of course arrives at the first port of
arrival which are southern European
countries
which in those years were undergoing an economic crisis. So that's the moment
in which basically the mechanism right the let's call it the
the
implicit social contract on migration in Europe breaks right and it's really
been since then that
Europeans
have been on the search for a new model now of course the problem and as indeed
you know we were beginning to
discuss
a moment ago the problem is that this all happens also at a time in which um
there is this first wave of
growing
nationalist populism in Europe and then of course the second wave which is what
we're in now. And so, in a sense the um that you know there are pretty
good
reasons why of course the underlying contract governing both asylum and
migration in Europe need to be rethought but that rethinking is
happening
in a fundamentally different political climate in Europe which ends up with the
solutions which we're probably going to end up talking about in just one
moment.
Yeah.
Peter, can I bring you in here because Natalie's point is that this is a
migration that has been happening for years and years and years and yet we are
in
a moment of increased nationalism and more populism and politics. And so why
now has this become the propelling
moment
for a change in the way the union does handle migration?
Well,
I think uh slowly we have seen uh voters um increasingly supporting uh
immigration
critical political forces or rather forces that want an end to some of the
chaos that we've seen uh last
year
um still despite the progress still 200,000 people entered illegally into
the
EU. So you know in a way this debate is not even about do we want more migrants
or less or more asylum seekers
or
less. It's about um making sure that the democratic policy choices on who is
allowed to enter and who is not are respected.
M
can I come to you because that there is that issue of being a migrant or being
undocumented or being quote unquote illegal. How much crossover is
there
really in terms of people who reach European shores or borders and claim that
they need asylum? And how
much
of it is a problem when people become undocumented or quote unquote overstay
and become illegal?
Well,
we know from working with communities and individuals across Europe and in fact
across the entire arc of displacement uh that most people of course wish to go
through legal routes.
uh
they wish to enter the system and become regularized. Um and in fact of course
uh under international law and
under
refugee law uh each person uh has the right to have their case individually and
adequately assessed
with
the legal safeguards and with uh assistance to that. Um what we see much of the
time is that people are
trapped
in lengthy asylum procedures because our reception and asylum systems are
underresourced and there's a lot of strain on countries of first entry. Uh
and
it therefore happens that sometimes people move on through secondary movement
and may get lost in the system.
So,
it's of course essential now um that further resources are allocated to be able
to process each and individual
claim
for asylum adequately and see who has a solid claim for asylum who is um
eligible for international protection.
Natalie,
can I pick up on the point there about the allocation of resources here?
Because when we look back over the years, I think 2015, it was called a
migrant
crisis. And there was an argument at the time that the huge influx, the numbers
as they were, I think political scientist Cass Mad said,
was
it really a crisis? Because he argued that Europe had the financial resources
to deal with this and yet it didn't is his argument. But also, may I suggest
that it hasn't up until today?
Well,
I mean, absolutely. In fact, um the migration crisis has never really been a
crisis about migration. It's a
political
crisis about migration. So, it is not really about the actual flows which even
at their peak were frankly
speaking
for you know one of the richest continents on earth um a you know Europe
of
uh you know almost 500 uh million people of course that they can deal with an
influx even when it reached a peak of
you
know 3 million or something a year right so of course it's manageable I mean
particularly honestly if you compare it to the influx of refugees
within
African, you know, the African country within the Middle Eastern region. I
mean, you know, just think about the percentage of refugee in a
country
like Lebanon, right? So, it's actually even shocking to use the word crisis
when referring to it in terms of
migration
per se. Now, it has of course constituted a political crisis. It's been a
crisis of solidarity within the
uh
the union and it's been of course a major crisis of international solidarity uh
visav indeed uh the refugees and uh the migrants themselves.
Right?
So, it's a political crisis and that political crisis has been both fed by and
has in turn been feeding
essentially
the political crisis that is encapsulated by indeed what Kasmade works on which
is the rise of nationalist populism in Europe.
Yeah.
And so Peter, if it is a political crisis, is this pact really the right
approach to tackle it?
Well,
there's good side, there's bad sides. Um, honestly, I think to redistribute
people within a
passport
free zone, the Shenan zone, uh, and to present that as a solution for some of
the, um, you know, the migration
pressures
or the, um, the lack of quick procedures or safe uh, pathways is
just
bizarre. And now we see countries like Poland basically refusing to uh,
implement that. and Poland is led by pro
pro-EU
governments by Mr. Tullk. Uh so um honestly I think um a lot more can be
expected
from a different uh legal measure that is currently being negotiated the
returns regulation which
will
for the first time allow EU countries to negotiate uh return hubs uh
which
means that uh people entering um illegally and then uh seeing their
asylum
request denied and then uh refusing to go back to their country of origin uh
risk being sent over there
which
may have um quite an effect at least that's what we see uh in a way um what has
worked uh in Australia the
Australian
system is not perfect but if you compare the number of people dying at sea in
Europe that was I think 30,000
people
in the last decades compared to Australia clearly um it is a lot more humane uh
to uh to do it in this way and
people
are not being duped by uh human smugglers. Also um of course on top of
that
you do need um legal pathways but those need to be restricted by uh you know
the democratic choices of the um
European
voters. Of course, the problem is though that is when populism and rhetoric
comes into it, isn't it Marta? That the voice of
the
people is not perhaps an accurate reflection of the situation or the issue or
the means to solve it.
No,
absolutely. And I think um the return regulation that the previous speaker just
referred to um I think um
it's
it cannot be seen as a humane uh solution. Uh we see it as a systematic
dismantling if anything of protections
and
a significant setback for for rights. Uh it will be one of the mo most punitive
immigration instruments that we
have
seen uh in recent EU history. It will um it will lead to significantly ramped
up deportation powers for EU
member
states. It's likely to lead to immigration raids uh not only in people's homes
but potentially also
within
NGO facilities like ours. Uh people will be uprooted from their communities
where they may have lived now for several years in EU member
states.
Families will be torn apart likely and people will be held in in prison-like
conditions. the article 17
return
hubs. I mean, these are bound to be legal black holes, offshore detention uh
facilities. So, I think um it's
important
not to um brush over this and refer to the return regulation as a as a
humane
system um when it's certainly isn't. uh we need to bear in mind the human
realities of these policies and
how
they will affect um individuals and and communities who have come to Europe to
seek protection.
16:5016
minutes, 50 secondsNatalie, can I bring you in here and perhaps you have some
thoughts on this as well. They're called offshore return
hubs.
By another name, I assume most people would consider them a detention center of
sorts. Do you see it as
problematic
that Europe is outsourcing this to a third party country if I'm trying to use
the most neutral language?
Well,
I mean, of course, it's absolutely problematic. Uh, if we want to see a silver
lining in this uh in a weird way, it is that I don't think it
will
actually be implemented. And I don't think it will be implemented because in
order for it to be implemented, what you need to have is
those
willing third countries. They may be terrible human rights violating countries,
but they have to be terrible human rights violating countries that
are
actually willing to do this for the EU. Now, there may be a very short list of
awful countries that are willing to
do
this, but it's an extremely short list because they need to get something in
return, right? And you know, let's
just
take the example of uh Italy, Albania, right? So, maybe you can have a country
which is actually not awful. I mean, Albania, I mean, in the big scheme
of
things, it's definitely not an awful country, but you know, it's Italy has been
trying to do this, but Albania in a sense more the exception than the
norm
because we know that Albania not only does it have, you know, um sort of long
historical ties to Italy and it
therefore,
in a sense wants to be nice to Italy, but above all, Albania wants to enter the
European Union. So even if and
of
course, as we know those uh extr territorial uh uh asylum processing uh centers
in Albania are still not
functioning
after basically four years of a farright government in Italy that promised that
this would be its kind of
you
know big thing and they're still not working because of all sorts of uh legal
uh problems related to it. But even if
they
were to work, as I said, it's connected to a particular demand that Albania has
of entering the European Union. What Albania says is, you know,
if
in two years time, we're actually within the European Union, of course, we're
going to stop doing this, right?
So,
and and as I said, Albania is just one of those few countries which is actually
willing to do this. Frankly speaking, I can't think of any other
country
that so far had has signalled a willingness to be part of this scheme.
Right?
So the EU can have passed all the laws that it wants, all the packs that it w
wants, doesn't necessarily mean quote, you know, sort of, you know, in
brackets
thankfully that it will actually be implemented.
Peter,
the other two speakers have raised some valid points and there has been
criticism already uh that in countries the likes of Libya and Tunisia
which
do see an influx of migrants waiting to make their journey, there are camps and
there is recorded documented
cases
of terrible assault and violence and all sorts of terrible crimes that occur.
What responsibility does the
European
Union have or should it have then if it insists on having these offshore
detention centers or hubs as a
place
to return to once people leave Europe?
Well,
evidently uh such hubs should remain under uh EU jurisdiction. Uh all the human
rights um standards should be
respected
there. Uh if you look at Australia, they have not implemented it in a perfect
way. Uh but they did manage
to
stop the chaos. They did manage to avoid uh those mass drownings at sea that
we've witnessed in Europe, the
chaos.
Uh so I mean also the left leaning uh political forces in Australia have uh
been
supporting this over I think almost two decades uh now. So what I think is that
if you care about migration, if you
care
about um asylum and um and if you care about avoiding
um
that the public turns against all of this, then uh you should be even more keen
to you know to stop the large scale
violation
of uh migration policy of the democratic choices made by European governments
on who is allowed to enter
and
who's not allowed to enter. And I think at the moment um correct me if I'm
wrong 80% or or twothirds of people that
are
told they cannot remain in the EU they remain anyway. You know from a
democratic point of view this I think is
a
great u a great problem but also if you care about migration and public support
for migration I think you should
be
alarmed uh by that and it should be a priority to do something about it. It's
an interesting point you raised there because you're you're tying one concept
to
another, if I've interpreted that right, that if you care about it, you have to
do it a certain way. But as we see consistently, there are lots of
different
voices that have an opinion on this. Pope Leo has just been in Spain addressing
a crowd that did include
migrants.
He said, "It is not enough to manage arrivals, distribute statistics,
reinforce borders, or lament deaths
after
they have occurred. You, he said to the migrants, are not just numbers or
files. You are people who have left behind families and homes. You have
dreams
that no one has the right to despise.
Mart,
I feel like you probably have quite a connection to this concept of what people
go through when they make that decision to leave their home and
leave
their country and to try and and go into the unknown. And and I just wonder if
this is a moment where Europe
has
misunderstood how to tackle the problem because of that overarching influence
of if you
care
about migration, you care about stopping something rather than finding a way to
resolve [snorts] an unstoppable
problem.
Their homeland is not somewhere they can stay.
Sure.
Yeah. No, absolutely. And and first of all, there is no solid or consistent
evidence that I'm aware of that suggests that harsher policies of
deterrence
do create a significant deterrent effect as it were. And this is indeed because
people many people are
fleeing
who are fleeing conflict, persecution or entrenched poverty.
They
don't make their migration decisions based on detailed knowledge of European
migration policies. their primary concern is safety, survival and
the
future of their families quite frankly and we really need to bear in mind also
the the realities of the mig migration journeys that these
individuals
take. Uh the IRC works with a lot of dis displaced people around the world and
in Europe and we see that many
people
seeking protection have risked their lives putting their lives indeed in the
hands of smugglers, undertaking dangerous sea crossings, uh walking
through
deserts and and and fearing extortion and so forth. So, someone who's willing
to take those kinds of risks, um they're unlikely to be
deterred
by the potential risk of being transferred to a so-called return hub.
And
moreover, um I mean, the previous speaker also referred to these hubs operating
under EU jurisdiction and
upholding
human rights. It or fundamental rights. It's extremely difficult to see how
that would happen.
Um
it's not at all clear how these hubs will operate, how who will be accountable
for the rights and well-being of the individuals inside of
them.
Um and how European policy makers can in any way guarantee uh the safety.
But
I'd like to also very briefly come back to again what the previous speaker
alluded to that if one cares about people on the move, one would want to
implement
for instance the return regulation. From our side, we see it differently. We do
of course agree that orderly migration an orderly
migration
system is needed of course but our concern is that the current approach focus
primarily on detention and
externalization
it is extremely expensive as we know we've seen the UK Rwanda deal and how much
that cost before it failed. Okay.
Uh
but also whilst this shows very limited evidence that it actually does create
durable solutions. Yeah. There many other things that that states need to do
instead.
Natalie,
can I come to you for the last comment? We have about a minute left. If you can
just give me a brief then I'm sure everyone wants to know will the pact work?
Um
again you know will it work to actually govern migration uh into Europe?
Frankly speaking, I have very
very
low hopes. Will it work politically for European parties uh to the far right
and the center right which have
basically
been those supporting this pack to say that something is being done on
migration, maybe it will work, right?
So,
I think you know this entire conversation has really I think put the focus on
this complete mismatch between
the
actual practice of migration and governing migration and the political spin
around it that particularly parties
to
the nationalist far right have been mobilizing in Europe. All right, Natalie
Tochi, a professor of practice at John's
26:0626
minutes, 6 secondsHopkins University, SIS Europe, joining us from Rome, Marta
Wender, EU advocacy director, International Rescue Committee, joining us from
Brussels. And
also
from Brussels, Peter Clipper, editor-in chief at Brusselsreport.eu. Thank you
all.
And
thank you too for watching. You can see the program again anytime by visiting
our website, aljazera.com.
And
for further discussion, go to our Facebook page. That's facebook.com/ajj
insidetory. You can also join the
conversation
on x. Our handle is @ aj insidetory.
For
now, that's it from me, Anna Burns, [music] Francis, and the team here. Al
Jazer's coverage continues in just a moment. Stay tuned.
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